Support group descriptors questions

[AlisonB]

Hopefully my post will get some answers, and stimulate some thinking

I've a copy of the ESA Guide by the Disability Alliance and have been looking closely at the the Support Group Descriptors relating to my post

11. Initiating and completing personal action(which means planning, organisation, problem solving, prioritising and switching tasks
This descriptor requires inability to reliably initiate aAor complete at least 2 sequential actions
12 Coping with change, 'cannot cope with change due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder, to the extent that day to day life cannot be managed
13. Coping with social engagement. 'Engagement in social contact is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the individual'

My questions are as follows

Would OCD related difficulties stand one a decent chance with 11, and 12, on the basis that obsessional thinking or ritual so hampers efficacy of these functions, or that they are efficaciously completed only the minority of the time, that it might be possible to secure this descriptor for access to the support group. ?

By 'Sequential actions ' would this for example be proven as an ability even at the medical it might be said that ' customer removed trousers and socks' or ' put shoes on and tied laces ' ? If so, then VERY few people would qualify under this heading Certain sequential actions such as those undertaken without active thought, example socks and laces, or 'operating a clutch and gears on a car' could be completed often even in the presence of severe, even mental health detention by section level illness, and so the sequential actions could be easily shown as successfully undertaken
Would several times daily Panic attacks causing fleeing from rooms and conversations suffice for 13. ? bY 'Social Contact' I presume that they do not mean you have no conversation at all with your housemates/immediate family with whom one lives ? Or might it be that 'social contact' would even include with the GP ? If it were to mean all forms of face to face contact it would mean that many patients on an acute psychiatric ward would not qualify for this descriptor, and almost no claimants who live in the same home as family members or partners

Any clarification ?

Any ideas ?:

Alison

[treborc]

I doubt a person would be asked to remove his or her trousers, but if they did and then got dressed them selves this would almost certain affect how they would see your ability, of course if you put your shoes on first and then tried to put your trousers on after, then ability to organize would be viewed as poor.

But these descriptors I suspect have been made to ensure the majority of us do not make it, the mobility descriptors are basically well worthless, unless you use an electric wheelchair.

I suspect over the next few years the tribunals will be very busy as the people who are doing the WCA assessments make comments which stop people from getting the points needed, but hell it was the same when we first started using the PCA.

[trickiedickie]

Does anyone know what happens if you use an Electric Scooter not an Electric Wheelchair. I use a scooter as its got a longer range and cheaper then an Electric Wheelchair for a long range.

TD

[AlisonB]

I doubt a person would be asked to remove his or her trousers, but if they did and then got dressed them selves this would almost certain affect how they would see your ability, of course if you put your shoes on first and then tried to put your trousers on after, then ability to organize would be viewed as poor.

But these descriptors I suspect have been made to ensure the majority of us do not make it, the mobility descriptors are basically well worthless, unless you use an electric wheelchair.

I suspect over the next few years the tribunals will be very busy as the people who are doing the WCA assessments make comments which stop people from getting the points needed, but hell it was the same when we first started using the PCA.

Thanks Treborc. However, I am interested in as many views as possible, so please if anyone else has some ideas (or even personal experience on which to draw) please feel free to add your view. I think the social interaction point is particularly relevant to many mental health conditons, and the nature of 'social interaction' quite an important feature upon which to reflect when aiming and arguing for the support group descriptors. It could mean that a person who has 'just' bad social anxiety could be entitled to the support group, or severe panic disorder, or perhaps some manifestations of depression.

[treborc]

Does anyone know what happens if you use an Electric Scooter not an Electric Wheelchair. I use a scooter as its got a longer range and cheaper then an Electric Wheelchair for a long range.

TD

Then they want to know how you get about daily at home, if you used a electric wheelchair at home, then used a scooter for getting about outside then you would if the medical evidence backed up your use of a wheelchair get the 15 points needed for mobility.

Some scooters can be used around shops and the likes but would not really be any use at home and so they require to know how you got about at home.

[treborc]

The problem is as we all know the social interaction would be deemed on the day, if the person turned up for the WCA then social interaction has been carried out, your at the medical. We all know these people who are doing the test are not always medically trained some are out of college and working because they are cheap under 25 so can be paid lower wages.

If person went to this medical and did not run away I suspect they say he or she was OK on the day.

The fact is you can be very very seriously disabled, you can have seriously medical or social or mental issues but the medical or WCA is all about how you act on the day, that one hour of a Test will determine your whole life.


You asked about the fact that somebody may not have a social interaction might run away ten of twelve times a day, well then he/she better run away from the WCA otherwise he has met the criteria for not having problems by just staying and under going the test.

My life is about the hour or thirty minutes it takes to answer questions at the WCA, and if a person says he has mental health problems and cannot interact with people, he or she then goes to this WCA and goes through it, then I'm sure the comments will be he or she seemed OK on the day.

The fact is everyone knows the descriptors have been altered in such a way to ensure the majority of us fail.

Can you move an item from A to B using any part of your body including your stumps.

The mental health descriptors have been designed by that great chap Purnell so that the majority of us can do these things

[AlisonB]

Thanks Treborc I agree the test has been recalibrated to ensure more fail. However, a healthy majority in the pilot ESA migration retained their benefit and a fair percentage got into the support group, The point of my question isnt just to attract another ' we're all doomed' response but to sound out the possible interpretation of support group descriptors, To be able to attend and communicate unsupported at the medical would likely cause difficulties BUT I am looking for opinions as to what the descriptor (and the other one's I mentioned ) applies to the rest of the time I mean outside of the examination centre, and people must remember that caselaw suggests the medical is a snapshot 'on the day' and the HCP should elicit a broader picture. Tribunals do uphold this principle, apparently. I agree the test is very significant for the future, but it is possible to prepare well and enhance one's prospects and also to appeal

[treborc]

DWP stats 2010

•support group - 6%;
•work related activity group -16%;
•fit for work - 39%;
•claim closed before assessment complete - 36%;
•assessment still in progress - 3%; and


A healthy majority OK we now know this was wrong because it does not take into consideration the people who appealed, but it does show that the new assessment is not working, we have now gone from the government target of 20% returning to work to a new assessment of 60%.

I think people have to accept that bunions, broken finger nails, or lost of a foot, or loss of a leg, or loss of a hand, is not going to get you benefits anymore, a wheelchair will not even get you benefits anymore unless it's electric.

I have seen people with HIV people with out legs people who are seriously disabled which can be seen, being told they are fit to work, not by doctors but by people who are basically ticking a box on a computer screen who have no interest what so ever in your health or disability.

Can you get ready for the test yes you can, one thing you must do is never ever go alone, you'd be surprised how many people go to this assessment alone and they tell people they cannot do anything without somebody with them.

But if anyone tells me this test is anything but fixed then sadly they are mistaken.

[AlisonB]

Hi Treborc,

The stats (2010 ) you cited are not the pilot stats which were more encouraging. I know about ATOS and have the battle scars. I agree 100 percent that going alone is a bad move. I believe the test is fixed but obviously a lot of people still pass it, at sub support group levels, and so there IS hope. The pilot stats seemed to show that current IB recipients have a higher chance of retaining their benefit in the form of

[treborc]

Most new claimants ‘fit to work’
(UKPA) – 10 hours ago

Three-quarters of people applying for a new benefits programme have been found fit to work, or withdrew their application before having a medical assessment, it has been revealed.

The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) said the figures emphasised the importance of getting people into work if they were fit and able to do so.

A total of 842,100 people applied for the Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) programme from October 2008 until February this year, the DWP found. Of that number, 331,100 were fit to work, with a further 307,200 people’s claims being closed before the assessment was completed.

Employment minister Chris Grayling said: “With over two million people trapped on incapacity benefits, these figures underline how important it is that we make sure everyone who has the potential to work gets the right help to move off benefits and into a job.
---------------------------------------
I hope your right about lots of people winning.

I'm seeing lot of people with severe disabilities for example loss of legs being told they are fit to work, because a wheelchair is now deemed as having legs, your mobile.

I see one person who lost both his legs and his right arm being told you can work your OK, he won his appeal because he could not propel his wheelchair a mistake which should have been picked up by the person asking the questions, but of course these really non medical people. I would much rather see a doctor who I can explain my problems then see some idiot behind a key board who is only interested in his bonus payments.

I hope your right but we will see.

Yes these are people who are applying not people going through the IB migration, they did not say how many people failed IB.