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Thread: Failed ESA + Rejected MR - What to do next?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by nukecad View Post
    joestar,

    You don't say if your father has claimed JSA or not yet?

    If you want to claim benefits after an unsucessful ESA decision then you have to claim JSA until you are given a tribunal (appeal) date.
    You don't have to claim JSA, but you can.

    Here's how this works (I've altered it slightly as you have already done the MR):

    Claiming JSA whilst awaiting a tribunal date-

    Whilst you are waiting for the tribunal date you will have to claim Job Seekers Allowance if you want to keep receiving benefit.
    Once both you and the DWP have been given a date for tribunal then you can go back onto assessment rate ESA until the tribunal decision.
    (Provided you were on ESA, assessment or full rate before the fit-for-work decision).

    If you have been claiming JSA whilst waiting for a date you have to ask to be put back onto assessment rate. The advisors are told not to ask you.
    Or you can stay on JSA, the jobcentres prefer you to stay on JSA but it's up to you.

    The Jobcentres are aware of this strange situation, when you sign onto JSA you tell them you are doing so because of an ESA MR / appeal and they don't give you the same claimant commitments as a regular jobseeker.
    (Be careful what you say though, if you refuse to do any jobseekers comitments at all they can refuse your JSA claim; they shouldn't but some bad advisors do).

    The fact that you are having to claim JSA in this situation has no bearing whatsoever on your Tribunal.
    The tribunal can only consider the circumstances at the date of your original claim, not what has happened since then.

    If they try to give you commitments that are too difficult for you all you can do is remind them that you are awaiting a ESA appeal because you have ill health.
    Try to point out how you condition affects your ability to do the commitments they ask for.
    For example, they may ask you to do so many hours searching for jobs. As most of this is done on a computer these days say that you can do this at home but cannot manage to go to the Jobcentre multiple times a week.

    Unfortunately the current government stance is that having been refused your initial ESA claim you have been found fit-for-work and so have to claim JSA until your appeal is lodged with the court.

    Changes to the rules last year mean that those claiming Jobseekers Alowance can have a period of 'Extended Sickness' for up to 13 weeks.
    So if you sign on to JSA you should be able to supply 'sicknotes' and you can go immediately into this 13 week sickness period.
    Hopefully a tribunal date will be set before 13 weeks are up and you can go back onto ESA assessment rate during appeal.

    If you don't claim JSA whilst waiting, then once the appeal date is set and you ask to go back on ESA assessment rate, you will get backpaid ESA for the period when you were awaiting for the MR and appeal date.
    You should get this backpay as soon as you go back onto the assessment rate.
    Hi Nukecad,

    Thank you for your very detailed advice.

    I was wondering, is it better to apply JSA online or by phone for my father?

    I would think doing this by phone would be easier to explain the situation.. what do you suggest?

  2. #12
    Hi Nukecad,

    Not sure why my reply didn't go through.

    Thank you for the detailed advice.

    Lastly, I was wondering is it easier to apply online or by phone for JSA to explain the situation? Or is there no real difference?

  3. #13
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    If you look at the online claim form for JSA it clearly says right at the start that you cannot use it if you have claimed ESA in the last month.

    (In the case of appealing an ESA decision I would not use it even if its been more than a month because you didn't claim during MR).

    You need to contact the Jobcentre by phone to claim.
    Explain that you are claiming JSA because you are waiting to appeal an ESA decision.
    They will take some details and make an appointment to go to the JC within a couple of days to complete the claim.
    https://www.gov.uk/contact-jobcentre-plus

    Just in case-
    Hopefully this won't happen but here may also be a slight issue in that the person on the phone may try to make you claim Universal Credit instead of JSA.
    You must tell them that you are claiming JSA because you are waiting to appeal an ESA decision.
    Currently you cannot claim UC if you are appealing an ESA claim, you have to claim JSA
    This is because of what they call the 'Gateway Conditions'. (Use that phrase if you need to).
    Last edited by nukecad; 08-09-2016 at 09:22 PM.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by joestar View Post
    Hi all,

    I'm asking for advice as I have been trying to help my father with this.

    So if anyone has any suggestions and experienced this situation similar to my fathers, please let me know what steps you took to cope financially with no ESA + HB and to progress this claim.

    Many thanks.
    J
    Apologies for going back to the beginning but didn't your father get a phone call and a letter telling him he had failed and to apply for JSA ?
    All the advice nukecad has given is sound . I have followed it being in the same position as your father .
    I never signed up for JSA on principle that my GP says I am not fit to work ,the Maximus assessor said in the report all manner of made up things about my life and how I coped and the D M's agreed .However I'll go with what my GP says .
    As for managing without income , maybe a relative as in my case could help out until the backpay of ESA when the appeal is accepted and acknowledged comes through ?

  5. #15
    If your father has now received the Mandatory reconsideration as your first post implies
    we asked for a MR and posted a letter to explain why we disagreed as we felt that they ignored some of the issues or overlooked some of the evidence.They've now got back to my father and have said they have not changed their decision.
    My father now wants to take this further to tribunal, though having no income is hurting my parents, especially when housing benefit has also stopped.
    If so NO point in claiming JSA as once HMCTS have acknowledged /accepted your appeal they will send your father a copy of this, and normally inform the DWP around the same time if not before, this is usually quick 1-2 weeks, By starting a JSA claim now will only complicate things and could delay any ESA payment, as the JSA claim would need to be closed down before esa can re commence, and the DWP's computer systems are unreliable , my claim for jsa was closed by the DWP but due to the system not being capable of doing this properly i was left without any money for over 2 weeks, If you have the MR decision notice best to send 1 of the copies, with the completed and signed sscs1 form, Saves a load of hassle then go see the GP to see if you can get a fit note ,backdated from when the previous ended ,(if not a letter to explain the gap) as you will need to send the DWP fit notes whilst your father waits for his appeal to be heard

    Also This reliance on the EPS when claiming JSA , this does not automatically normally excuse you from having to attend the JC to sign on or attend other appointments, because although your are eps, you still need to satisfy their criteria, and some work coaches aren't as understanding as others, same applies to claimant commitments,

  6. #16
    @ Nukecad The op's has already implied that their father has received the MR, decision that was previously requested ,if this is the situation, then once the tribunal service has received and accepted the appeal and sent notification to the DWP usually less than 2 weeks they can with a fit note from their GP re start the old ESA claim and be paid at the assessment rate until the appeal is heard
    So no need to complicate things further by claiming JSA and all the extra delays that this can have especially at this point
    Last edited by tom34; 08-09-2016 at 11:05 PM.

  7. #17
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    @ Nukecad The op's has already implied that their father has received the MR, .................................
    So no need to complicate things further by claiming JSA and all the extra delays that this can have especially at this point
    Yes, I know that he has already had the MR decision.

    If you read my previous post (#10 in this thread) you will see that I acknowledge that, and state that I have tailored the advice to reflect it.

    I also state in that post that he does not have to claim JSA, but that he can if he wants to.
    And I set out what happens if he doesn't claim JSA but waits until he can go back onto ESA assessment rate.

    It is up to him, not us, whether he wants to claim JSA at this stage.
    So I have provided advice on how to go about it, what happens if he does want to, and what happens if he does not want to.

    Remember - The couple of weeks it will take for the tribunal date to come through (and then for ESA to start being paid again) may seem like an age for someone who has not been getting any money whilst waiting for the MR decision.
    Signing on for JSA, for however short a period, may be a godsend if it lets you buy some food.

    Also remember that in his first post joestar asked-
    ...please let me know what steps you took to cope financially with no ESA + HB...
    Last edited by nukecad; 08-10-2016 at 09:38 AM.
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  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by nukecad View Post
    Yes, I know that he has already had the MR decision.

    If you read my previous post (#10 in this thread) you will see that I acknowledge that, and state that I have tailored the advice to reflect it.

    I also state in that post that he does not have to claim JSA, but that he can if he wants to.
    And I set out what happens if he doesn't claim JSA but waits until he can go back onto ESA assessment rate.

    It is up to him, not us, whether he wants to claim JSA at this stage.
    So I have provided advice on how to go about it, what happens if he does want to, and what happens if he does not want to.

    Remember - The couple of weeks it will take for the tribunal date to come through (and then for ESA to start being paid again) may seem like an age for someone who has not been getting any money whilst waiting for the MR decision.
    Signing on for JSA, for however short a period, may be a godsend if it lets you buy some food.

    Also remember that in his first post joestar asked-
    But as ge is now at the stage were he has the MR decision notice it would be pointless for him to now claim JSA and would likely get an esa payment in a shorter time scale than if they claimed JSA , only to then to have to go through the closing of that jsa claim and tr claiming esa and the associated delays that can and do occur in doing that, And lets not forget the 13 weeks EPS isn't a magic bullet
    As it is very possible that a claimant can still be required to attend the JC regularly to sign on ect to satisfy the JSA conditionality , which is why it's best avoided unless you have no other means of income available

    You don't say if your father has claimed JSA or not yet?

    If you want to claim benefits after an unsuccessful ESA decision then you have to claim JSA until you are given a tribunal (appeal) date.
    You don't have to claim JSA, but you can.
    isn't correct as you can re start your esa claim again once HMTCS has accepted your appeal and sent the acknowledgement if this to all parties ,(once DWP have this on their system,) can be the same day and the acknowledgement letter that HMCTS send out to the claimant and their representatives if they have them (usually takes 1 week 2 tops, from the date they receive the sscs1)
    From that point all it should take is a phone call to the calls centre and a upto date fit note once received and their system updated,
    The difference between HMCTS accepting the appeal, and the tribunal hearing the appeal can be several months
    Last edited by tom34; 08-10-2016 at 10:17 AM.

  9. #19
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    As said above I'll let Joestar's father decide whether he wants to claim JSA at this stage - or whether he wants to (can afford to) wait until he can claim ESA again once his appeal has been accepted and the DWP notified.
    (At which time they also usually set the tribunal date, but OK, technically notification of appeal acceptance could be done without setting a date).

    It's his decision to make, not mine or yours.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by nukecad View Post
    As said above I'll let Joestar's father decide whether he wants to claim JSA at this stage - or whether he wants to (can afford to) wait until he can claim ESA again once his appeal has been accepted and the DWP notified.
    (At which time they also usually set the tribunal date, but OK, technically notification of appeal acceptance could be done without setting a date).

    It's his decision to make, not mine or yours.
    Yes of course it is,i was just trying to point out that by claiming JSA could well complicate things, and also take longer before the first payment was received, ( as you ring them, arrange an appointment with a work coach , this can take several days or a week sometimes, then you have further delays ,) Pointless IMO ,why put yourself of having to jump though the JSA hoops?, It would appear that the op's dad has got by up till now, if i was able to survive without claiming JSA i wouldn't of bothered claiming it

    notification of acceptance of appeal is done separately and has been each time for me, they will then sometimes send out another letter, a reminder about further evidence submission iic before they arrange a hearing date and send you the notice

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