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Thread: ESA and occupational pension. how much are you allowed before it effects your ESA

  1. #1
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    ESA and occupational pension. how much are you allowed before it effects your ESA

    As per subject line. I was retired under ill heath grounds and granted my occupational pension. This was in 26 on May 2001. My pension is indexed linked so goes up every year.
    How much can my pension be before it affects my ESA. I am led to believe that my pension is protected and should not affect my ESA.
    "Basically those on Incapacity Benefit and Severe Disability Allowance, who claimed IB before 6 April 2001 OR are entitled to the highest rate care component of disability living allowance will continue to have any occupational pension fully disregarded on transfer to contributory ESA. Unlike other new ESA claimants who have 50 per cent of any occupational pension over £85 a week deducted from their entitlement.
    I was on long term sick prior to being retired. 1997 - to date
    Last edited by joss; 04-27-2019 at 05:37 PM. Reason: more detail

  2. #2
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    I am led to believe that my pension is protected and should not affect my ESA.
    "Basically those on Incapacity Benefit and Severe Disability Allowance, who claimed IB before 6 April 2001 OR are entitled to the highest rate care component of disability living allowance will continue to have any occupational pension fully disregarded on transfer to contributory ESA.
    I've not heard of that one, where does that information/quote come from please?

    I'll see if I can find anything about this in the Decision Makers Guidance.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    I've had a quick look at Ch51 of the DMG which deals with pension income in ESA.
    https://assets.publishing.service.go...73/dmgch51.pdf

    51050 Says that "occupational pensions should be fully taken into account" for IR ESA.

    51766 Says that income from occupational pensions "are deducted from the claimant’s personal rate, when calculating the amount of ESA(Cont) payable to the claimant for each benefit week or part-week. The amount deducted is half the excess over £85".

    51804 to 51813 Deal with disregards for CB ESA.
    51804 says "Certain payments may be received by the claimant but do not fall to be deducted from ESA(Cont)"

    But reading the rest there is nothing like a disregard depending on the date IB was first claimed as you suggest above.

    It may be that the DMG does not reflect the whole legislation, it sometimes doesn't especially for little used and/or obscure clauses.

    Have they been deducting half of any over £85 from your CB ESA?

    It would be interesting if you could say where you got that information about a disregard due to the IB claim date?

    EDIT - I've had another thought that could explain why it may have seemed as if an ESA disregard applied when in fact it didn't, let me think some more.
    Last edited by nukecad; 04-27-2019 at 11:00 PM.
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  4. #4
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    Good morning Nukecad

    Thanks for the reply.
    I have never had any amount over £85.00 deducted from my CB ESA since I have been drawing my occupational pension.

    1. In part, information regarding disregard of occupational pension from the Benefit and work web site https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/fo...ed-esa?start=0
    2. The original details came from https://www.facebook.com/FightBack4J...53274310535565 and they said this:

    Occupational pensions and Contribution Based ESA:

    We are being asked quite a lot about Occupational Pensions and ESA (Support Group, contribution based) Following migration from Incapacity Benefit to ESA.

    Basicall those on Incapacity Benefit and Severe Disability Allowance, who claimed IB before 6 April 2001 or are entitled to the highest rate care component of disability living allowance will continue to have any occupational pension fully disregarded on transfer to contributory ESA, unlike other new ESA claimants who have 50 per cent of any occupational pension over £85 a week deducted from their entitlement.

    Pensions prior to conversion

    Certain pension payments or PPF periodic payments, do not fall to be deducted from ESA(Cont). In addition any pension payment or PPF periodic payment is disregarded where

    1. the claimant was entitled to IB immediately before conversion to ESA and
    2. IB was not reduced by a pension or PPF payment because
    2.1 the claimant was entitled to DLA care component at the highest rate3 or
    2.2 the claimant qualified for IB under the provisions for those incapacitated in youth because of previous entitlement to SDA4 or
    2.3 the claimant was entitled to IB before 6.4.01 on any day
    which began before and continues after that date.

    If you receive contribution based Employment and Support Allowance and have a gross pension income of more than £85 a week, the amount of benefit payable will be reduced by half of the excess.

    If you receive income-related Employment and Support Allowance, any pension income you have will be taken into account, regardless of the amount.

    If you claimed before April 2001 then your pension will be disregarded on ESA. You should receive the same ESA as your current rate of IB, if you pass the medical of course.

    You may find this of help Nukecad. https://assets.publishing.service.go...0108509087.pdf From page 22 Treatment of occupational and private pensions. It is long winded but relevant in establishing the Transitional support.

  5. #5
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    That B&W thread seems clear enough on it, if you had a pension disregard under IB then you have one under CB ESA as well after migrating from IB-ESA.
    But it's a pity no one refers to which legislation says this.

    I'd already found that document that you linked, but that's not the actual legislation it's just a draft report before the legislation was enacted.
    However paragraph 114 would back you up if the DWP do try and reduce your CB ESA.

    The original legislation would seem to be:
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/.../contents/made
    Updated to:
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/1907/contents

    I've not had time to read them yet, maybe later today.

    However from everything I see you don't have the pension disregard as far as IR ESA is concerned, so probably no backpay for missed premiums.

    (PS. The other though I had was an interesting situation that could arise with the Transitional Protection, I'll bear it in mind but it seems as if it's not needed here).
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  6. #6
    Dear Nukecad,

    I have been going crazy over this problem for Years and every time i've queried this i've just been told i don't know what i'm talking about. Ive recently been sent the recent problem one about top up IR ESA.

    I am a retired nursing sister I was medically retired in 1998 with my pension which is at present about £300 per month (£75 per week) I got IB and my pension wasn't taken into account. I converted to ESA CB in August 2012, Initially put in WRAG but got a mandatory reconsideration and put in Support Group. All was going ok then got a letter after 12 months saying I wasn't entitled anymore but could apply for IR ESA to which I got then they took off the whole of my Pension £75 so lost £300 a month. I phoned them and they explained because i'm on IR ESA it was reduced by pension.
    I excepted that initially until I got my April letter telling me of a small increase with inflation pennies I think but the letter stated I was on CB Esa with IR Top up inline with the transitional From IB to ESA and you can see its taken off my Whole pension.

    Ive now found your page and other pages saying as i was on IB before 2001 I should be protected under transitional rules I shouldn't be losing anything. Whats worse In December 2017 i was interviewed under caution for freud that I hadn't told them about my pensions I said you've known since 1998, and I was getting then about £280 a month they said No your getting that a week which I offered to show them my P60 yearly statements supported my monthly amount.
    I was asked to leave room I asked them if they could look into the transitional rules as well.
    I then got a letter in the January of 2018 saying no further action would be taken, nothing about my request.
    I have phoned up recently and told they were looking into underpayments only and that was that.

    Could you offer me any further advice. I was put into Support group indefinitely about 3 years ago, now i'm scare to rock boat.

    Sorry for long post

  7. #7
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    That is somewhat complicated, and I'm by no means familiar with this stuff.
    (As you may have noticed from the posts above I knew nothing of this transfer of pension disregard until joss asked about it).

    The bit about CB ESA stopping after 12 months is correct if you were in WRAG, but it becomes CB again (with an IR top-up) anytime that you are in Support Group.
    Unfortunately most staff at the DWP don't know, or understand, that rule. But from what you say you are on CB with and IR top-up so that's right.

    I believe that the pension disregard carried over from IB would end after the 52 weeks when you changed from CB ESA to IR ESA.
    As far as I can see the protection of the disregard only applied for as long as you were on CB ESA, so when you moved to IR ESA it was lost and the pension would be fully deducted from IR ESA.

    I don't believe that the pension disregard protection would be reinstated when you later got Support Group and were moved back to CB ESA (with an IR top-up), usually once a transitional protection is lost that's it.

    However from what you say there is a bit of a question mark over whether you should have been put on IR ESA after 12 months if you had previously been given Support Group at appeal?
    That's going to depend on just what happened when and why.

    TBH I think your best bet would be to get together whatever paperwork you still have from back then and take it to see a local welfare/benefit advisor.
    I realise that you may not have kept it, it is a while back.
    You might want to print out the above posts and take that as well to give them an idea of which legislation might apply to the pension protection.
    (Like myself they have probably not heard of it unless they have been in the job for a long time).
    You can find a local advisor by putting your postcode into this webpage:
    https://advicelocal.uk/find-an-adviser

    If you are very lucky then someone will look at this as part of the review of all IB to ESA transfers that they are doing.
    Although they are ostensibly only looking at whether the IR entitlement was assessed or not the special team doing it are being very careful and looking at transfer issues that go beyond that.

    Sorry I can't help more than that.
    Last edited by nukecad; 05-17-2019 at 11:01 PM.
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