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Thread: PIP Mandatory Reconsideration. Do I make my own points suggestions or not?

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by scotleag View Post
    Sorry, one more thing. Is everything separate? I mean can or will the person conducting the ESA review have access to my PIP interview and report?
    They probably could get it if they wanted, but they won't.

    I actually used my PIP assessment as evidence at my ESA tribunal.

    I won my appeal by combining PIP lower rate mobility award (Being able to walk between 20 & 50 metres) with my ESA assessment that said I wouldn't be able to use a manual wheelchair because it would tire me out.

  2. #62
    So they would be aware I've had a PIP assessment then but just not bother to look at it? That's disturbing as it might lead to opinion being formed before interview. I'm more confident of winning any potential ESA appeal than the PIP one as there's already a benchmark to go by in my previous assessment two years ago and things haven't improved since then. On the other had I barely qualified for WRAG and losing even one point would knock me out of it. Thus, a per my post above, I'd have lost over £50 per week when combined with DLA and while it's ok to think I'd win an ESA appeal and get it backdated that doesn't solve the problem of how to survive in the meantime

  3. #63
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    ESA and PIP are seperate things, the DM for one will not see the report from the other.

    They have tried in the past using PIP assessments/reports for ESA, and vice versa, but found it doesn't work. (But the government has forgotten that and they are talking about trying it again).
    It doesn't work simply because they are assessing very different things.

    ESA is only about if you can do any work or not.
    PIP is about how you can manage your life day to day. (And not about work).

    If you were to lose ESA then yes your money would go down by the amount of the WRAG component - But that 's not due to UC, it would have been the same with having to claim JSA.

    PS. If you were to lose ESA then in your case it would be very important that you appeal.
    This is because if you had to make a new claim for UC then you wouldn't get any extra money for UC-LCW unless/until you won the ESA appeal.
    It's only ongoing LCW that was originally claimed before April 2017 that qualifies for extra payment of UC-LCW (or ESA WRAG), and obviously any new UC claim would be made after that date so would not qualify for the extra unless the LCW had been carried over on migration from an old ESA claim. (Which is what winning the appeal would mean, you would have had it continuously since you first claimed ESA).
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

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  4. #64
    That’s very clear, thanks. I’m far more confident about winning an appeal for ESA than PIP- It really shouldn’t go that far as there has been no change for the better in the activity I scored points on but losing just one point would make me ‘fail’ & after the PIP experience I suppose I shouldn’t be too surprised if that’s what happens and losing a total of over £50 per week is an absolutely horrific prospect.

  5. #65
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    I know it's a worry,

    I'm in the same situation of only 15 points and all from one descriptor - Conciousness in my case.
    No chance of SG because, oddly, conciousness is not covered at all in the SG descriptors.

    I was actually only given 9 points when I first claimed ESA, but even though I didn't really know anything about benefits back then I easily won my appeal to get the 15 points needed for WRAG.

    I've had no problem getting the full 15 at every reassessment since, but as you say you never can tell.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

  6. #66
    Yes, I'm exactly the same as you - 15 points on consciousness. If it hadn't been for the PIP experience I don't think I'd be at all worried as there have been no changes for the better, if anything a bit worse. One thing I did note though, having read through both WCA & PIP reports several times is that both the person making the initial referral for assessment and the one doing the actual assessment describe themselves, in addition to their 'normal' job - both registered nurses - as Approved Disability Analyst whereas the one doing the PIP assessment gives her occupation as paramedic but no further qualification unlike the WCA people. I don't know if there's a different standard applied or whether this is something worth mentioning at appeal. In my MR letter I've stated I appreciate the valuable and possibly occasionally perilous tasks undertaken by paramedics but that they are not experts in chronic long-term conditions.

    I'm just hoping I get the WCA person I got last time and not the PIP one. Though I don't know if they do both or only PIP

    Oh, to add, like you I had little experience of the benefits system until 2017. I hadn't been out of work for about 25 years and the last time was back in the day when you signed on once a week and payments were by Giro. It's totally different now and a steep learning curve
    Last edited by scotleag; 08-09-2019 at 11:49 AM.

  7. #67
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    There is no legal requirement for the assessors to have any medical qualification whatsoever.
    They are not assessing/diagnosing any medical condition, they are assessing an individuals capabilities not their conditions.

    It is the individual companies contracts with the DWP that specifies that they must have a certain level of medical training, and be a member of a professional body.
    But that's more to cover their own backs than for any other reason.

    People frequently make the mistake of trying to argue about the assessors (lack of) qualifications at tribunal.
    But that doesn't, will never, work because the tribunals have to interpret the law, and there is nothing in the law that says assessors need to have any qualifications.

    Trying to argue at tribunal about the assessors (lack of) qualifications is simply a waste of everyones time.

    As far as the law is concerned you, me, anyone else, or even a trained monkey, could carry out PIP or ESA assessments.
    (Some suggest they are already being done by trained monkeys).

    PIP and ESA assessments are done by totally different companies, so there is very little chance of assessors doing both.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

  8. #68
    ESA is supposed to assess your mobility with aids, PIP has mobility descriptors for both with aids and without aids, in theory if someone was awarded a descriptor "with aids" on PIP that is shorter than the distance for the ESA descriptor with aids it could be used as evidence.

    But I have absolutely no experience of anyone ever trying that or even researched if anyone has ever done it.

    "Can stand and then move using an aid or appliance more than 20 metres but no more than 50 metres"

    Actually I have just looked at it again and yeah this is different, the pip descriptor clearly states when standing, however ESA includes assessing whilst sitting in a wheelchair or on a scooter.

    This is this descriptor. Which is very extreme and I expect a tiny amount of people get it.

    "Cannot, either aided or unaided, –
    (i) stand; or
    (ii) move more than 1 metre"

    Note the or, not an and. So that could be perceived as including mobility in a wheelchair. That is probably the only descriptor for PIP that could be used as evidence for ESA, the rest in my view are too different.

  9. #69
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    Yes, PIP talks about 'walking' whereas ESA talks about 'mobilising'.

    Obviously those two terns are different (mobilising includes using a wheelchair, etc. Not just walking).

    Its the classic example of why one assessment does not have the same requirements as the other.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

  10. #70
    Ah well, I'd hoped I'd spotted a loophole. Yes, I can see it's different companies but the assessors aren't directly employed by ATOS et al. That's why I was thinking I might get the same one. That there's a finite pool of health professionals in any given area and it's possible they may do work for more than one provider. I won't know till I go through the door.

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