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Thread: Audited PIP report - can I see copy of original?

  1. #1

    Audited PIP report - can I see copy of original?

    To anyone who knows, nukecad or anyone else.

    It seems my PIP report is delayed because its been audited, and this process is scheduled to finish in 2-3 days.

    I have read all sorts of horror stories of people having descriptors downgraded during auditing.

    I have also read DWP guidelines on the auditing process, things like they expect strict assignments of descriptors based on diagnosis something I consider not in the spirit of the law and grossly unfair.

    So my question is when I request my report is it reasonable for me to expect to see what has been specifically amended by audit?

    I dont consider it reasonable and fair for amendments to be made by someone who is not part of the f2f process.

  2. #2
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    To start with just what kind of audit is it? Is it an audit or something else?

    An audit is just a look at what has been done, it doesn't change anything.

    The assessors do their own routine internal assessor quality audits, which they will do on a random basis, or for new assessors, or when an assessor has previously been warned of sloppy work.

    They are not checking/altering the content of the report itself but rather checking how the particular assessor is doing their job, are they filling in the boxes they should be and so on.
    It's more of a 'are the correct boxes filled in correctly' not a' what does its say'.

    They are doing quite a few more of these after concerns were raised by the DWP about the quality of assessment reports.

    If it is particularly bad then the assessment company may insist that it's redone correctly. (and give the assessor a warning).

    BUT:
    Your report is not your report until it has left the assessors and been sent to the DWP, until it has left the assessors then it is an unfinished/incomplete 'work in progress'.

    The DWP also randomly audit reports after they have received them, but again that's about if all the fileds and boxes have been filled in correctly and not about the contents of the report.

    The usual reason for a report being changed is if/when the DWP Decision Maker decides the contents of the report is not up to standard (maybe it contradicts GP evidence? maybe it contradicts itself?) and so sends it back to the assessors for reworking.
    But that is reworking and not an audit.

    I have read all sorts of horror stories of people having descriptors downgraded during auditing.
    And that's all they are, horror stories.
    Often deliberate, some people get their kicks out of scaring others. (and see disabled people as an easy target).

    Ask yourself - How do these people who tell the horror stories know that something has been changed?
    If it is indeed an audit then they know nothing about what was done, because the audit is about the assessor not about the report.
    If it was sent back for rework then how do they know what it said before it was sent back for rework?
    Again the answer is that they don't.
    Last edited by nukecad; 07-31-2019 at 02:14 PM.
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  3. #3
    Have a gander at this, they can do change the reports if they are found to be of unacceptable standard.

    There has even been people posting on youreable regarding having their reports changed.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...al-performance

    3.4.2 Audit has a central role in ensuring that decisions on benefit entitlement, taken by DWP, are correct. It supports this by confirming that independent HP advice complies with the required standards and that it is clear and medically reasonable. It also provides assurance that any approach to assessment and opinion given is consistent so that, irrespective of where or by whom the assessment is carried out, claimants with conditions that have the same functional effect will ultimately receive the same benefit outcome.

    3.4.3 Assessment reports subject to audit will be examined and graded ‘acceptable’, ‘acceptable: HP learning required’, ‘acceptable: report amendment required’ and ‘unacceptable’ in accordance with the quality audit criteria in section 3.5.

    3.4.4 More detailed guidance on how reports should be audited and the criteria to be used are set out in section 3.5.3.
    Now I am not fully quoting this part as its huge, but you can read it on the link.

    Grading
    3.5.5 Reports are graded as ‘acceptable’, ‘acceptable: HP learning required’, ‘acceptable: report amendment required’ or ‘unacceptable’ in accordance with the following criteria.
    One of the areas, they audit is "descriptor choice" and also "prognosis advice"

    Clinically improbable advice such that the descriptor choice is highly unlikely and would lead to a wrong award or major error in duration if not changed

    Justification which fails to support the advice or the descriptor chosen and would suggest an alternative award
    What you quoted in your post is like repeating what the "official" line is. But people have reported amendments like descriptors been downgraded and comments regarding "needs" been "removed".

    So obviously I will expect a copy of my unaudited report. If there has been no changes to descriptors in a negative way then fair enough, but we will see.

    Nukecad these stories dont just come from claimants, they are also some present on rightsnet a site you frequently use. From welfare rights workers themselves.

    Finally they are amended (if decided need to be) before the DM even sees the report.

    Live cases
    3.4.17 Unless there are extenuating circumstances, audit activity should be carried out while cases are ‘live’ and before they are submitted to DWP. As such all audit activity should be carried out swiftly to avoid delay to the case.
    Last edited by worried33; 07-31-2019 at 03:19 PM.

  4. #4
    So for example.

    An assessor might visit a claimant in their home. They see they have a diagnosis that normally doesnt give a descriptor, but decide to "overrule" that based on their visual evidence of the claimant, and perhaps also from GP supplied evidence.

    Then an auditor steps in.

    They decide that the diagnosis doesnt warrant the descriptor based on this "Clinically improbable advice such that the descriptor choice is highly unlikely and would lead to a wrong award or major error in duration if not changed" and remove it.

    It is clear from that government document that auditors are doing a lot more than fixing grammar.

    We wont know from my report probably for at least 2 weeks, as capita told me they wont be closing it for 2-3 days, and then obviously after that I need to wait for the DWP to get it, and then request it, and then wait for their second class post. I will also probably have to do a SAR to get the unedited report which will take even longer.
    Last edited by worried33; 07-31-2019 at 03:21 PM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    That is the guidance for the assessors, for their own aduits before it becomes a report.

    As I said until the report is sent to the DWP it is a work in progress and not the completed report.
    That last clause that you quote make that clear, it's a 'live' WIP until it's submitted to the DWP.
    Anything changed at that stage is not a change to the 'report' because it is not a 'report' until they actually send it to the DWP.
    You would not be entitled to request a copy of work in progress.

    Once it is sent to the DWP then it is a report, and you should be entitled to request a copy.
    Those are the the things that you see on rightsnet and on here, finished reports that have been submitted to the DWP and then reviewed/reworked - not WIP that has been audited while still at the assessors.
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  6. #6
    So you not willing to advise on how to get the original untampered report?

    Thats my question, not the rest.

    In this case, someone managed to get notes of what was edited, and could see comments (and descriptors) were removed as a result of audit intervention.

    https://www.youreable.com/forums/sho...-report-PA4-V3

    It is important to note as said by both ex employees of capita and the government document, it is already a report before it is audited, it does not only become a report after audit, it clearly states that in the document I showed you, I dont know your reasons nukecad for trying to disguise this "fact".

    Not every report is audited, you seem to be suggesting that a report is work in progress until it is audited, but given the fact not every report is audited it contradicts your very statement. A report is "completed" by the HP and submitted to the AP for processing, but if it is picked for auditing, then it may need to get changed as a result of the auditors input.

    In addition reports that make it the DWP can also be audited after that point.

    https://www.mypipassessment.co.uk/yo...ip-assessment/

    So to make it absolutely clear, a report is completed when the HP submits it, but can be subject to amendment if the auditor deems it either 'unacceptable' or 'report amendment required'.

    How is this important?

    Well if one goes to tribunal and they only have the audited report, then it means its their word, their evidence supplied by someone such as GP, up against the HP.
    If one has an untampered report, and it shows the HP's opinion without intervention agreed with the claimant and GP, then the weight of evidence tips significantly in the claimants favour. It then becomes GP, claimant, "and" HP against auditor.

    Finally the discussions found on rightsnet is where the welfare advisor has managed to get the unaudited report "after" considerable effort. So they have both versions of the report. As I said I dont why you want to say that reports are not completed before been audited, you dont audit incomplete work, you audit complete work.

    Also I did reread when you said my last point made it clear "its a Live WIP", sadly for yourself it doesnt say that, you yourself added "WIP" I dont know why you added that.

    So I dont want to discuss that with you now, but rather a simple question, do you know how one can easily request the unaudited copy of the report?
    Last edited by worried33; 08-01-2019 at 07:10 AM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    Well you can always try (but I don't hold out much hope).

    You would make a 'Right of Access Request' (also known as a 'Subject Access Request) under the Data Protection Act 2018. (often refered to as GDPR).

    That means that they have to provide you with the data that they hold about you when you request it, they should provide the requested data within one month.

    So in your case you could specifically request from the assessment company (not the DWP) copies of both the draft and the final reports.
    Or simply request all data and information that they hold in connection with your assessment.

    This explains how to go about it, and even includes a letter template:
    https://ico.org.uk/your-data-matters...ght-of-access/
    Last edited by nukecad; 08-01-2019 at 11:08 AM.
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  8. #8
    The audit was a two and half week delay, the DWP only got the audited report yesterday, I have requested that first.

    After I get it I will do the SAR to see if I can get the draft copy.

  9. #9
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    Call me pessimistic, but -

    They'll probably tell you that it was no longer required and so has been destroyed to comply with GDPR requirements to not keep data longer than needed.

    You might find this rightsnet thread, and an associated FoI of interest - the DWPs reply to the FoI should certainly be interesting when it eventually comes:
    https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/14838/
    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...utgoing-926261
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  10. #10
    Someone else advised me capita dont have to comply with SAR so its unlikely the report is obtainable, but I have good news.

    Whilst I still think this entire system of having original draft reports been hard to access is wrong, it looks like this isnt a fight for me to make today.

    I got the audited report two days after I requested it, one descriptor wasnt given, but he gave another instead, so I have been recommended the award I believe I am entitled to.

    8 points care, 8 points mobility, 4 years.

    Hopefully its not a thing within the DWP for DM's to remove points from reports on decisions or reduce prognosis as I have the minimal for both awards.

    Also thanks for your responses, especially after I was a bit rude to you.

    Sadly the DWP have been proven time and time again to not uphold the law, which is why they lose so many cases. What you showed me from rightsnet doesnt surprise me.

    --edit--

    I have just looked at it again, actually is only 4 points for mobility, I can understand that descriptor is hard for them to judge but a second descriptor which I feel I should have got something for which I didnt was worth 4 points for mobility which is the descriptor for needing prompting to go outside. That descriptor is a bit confusing what it covers tho but I noticed on the report he wrote I regularly go out for walks so this justified the decision, he omitted the fact I do this at 3am to avoid people outside, and that it isnt regularly either.

    If the DM goes with the report, I probably wont appeal or MR, as I would be happy enough with that still, but I think I may try to get the draft report as it leaves me curious if anything was downgraded, however I Wont try that hard. Probably a SAR request to both capita and DWP, and if they fail that will be it.
    Last edited by worried33; 08-09-2019 at 02:53 PM.

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