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Thread: Really struggling to understand UC's logic

  1. #1

    Really struggling to understand UC's logic

    Hi,

    so I'm not on UC just yet, I get ESA and am in the support group for now but naturally am gearing up to the dreaded moment when I will someday be transferred onto UC.

    Out of fear and because I struggle on and off with money I decided to use the online benefits calculator to see what the future will look like on UC. They say that the current claimant on ESA SG can get up to £190 a week (I'm not getting that just yet but am near abouts it) but under UC I'd get less. I did actually expect that so it didn't surprise me at all. but then - as I had a pregnancy scare last month and decided to start using hypothetical situations - they said that if I had a child (whether disabled or on JSA) I would get LESS with the current system but MORE with UC? how on earth does that make sense? Are they trying to imply that UC favours parents more than disabled people and that the system is there in order to help out parents more? because isn't that sending the wrong message? surely this might encourage the unemployed (not all of them of course) to start having children in order to receive more???

  2. #2
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    I'm not sure that you have been using the calculators correctly, or may be forgeting other factors.

    To start with in your particular case you will be no worse off when Managed Migrated to UC than you are now, there will be Transitional Protection to ensure that you don't get any less money.
    Some people will actually end up better off on UC then they are on ESA. (Some who Naturally Migrated already are better off on UC).

    That figure of £190 is wrong, for a single person on ESA SG with EDP and SDP the figure is £194.30 a week.
    Without SDP that reduces to £128.45 a week.
    You say though that you are "near abouts" the £190, which I can't get to work, - is yours a couples claim? or are you having something deducted?

    Regarding your hypothetical situation of a child:
    Was the benefit calculator including Child Tax Credits, which is paid by HMRC and not by the DWP?
    Under legacy benefits you could have claimed Child Tax Credits. (You still can claim it if you have SDP).
    If you didn't have any income then you should get the maximum amounts.
    CTC basic element = up to £545 /year
    For each child = up to £2,780 /year
    So the total for one child will be 545 + 2,780 = £3,325 /year

    CTC will be/has been replaced by Universal Credit.
    Under UC you will get UC child element for a first child of £277.08/month x 12 = £3,324.96 /year. (Which is 4 pence less than maximum CTC).

    Just to add that in both cases you could also claim Child Benefit of £20.70/week.
    (Child Benefit remains outside of UC).

    I don't believe that anyone would have a baby simply to get more benefits, that's just a myth put about by the tabloid press.

    To start with the average cost in the first year of a baby is over £11,000; way more than any benefit you'd get for having a child.
    https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.u...to-have-a-baby
    Last edited by nukecad; 09-16-2019 at 02:03 PM.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

  3. #3
    phew thats a relif, i guess i did read it wrong

    but

    To start with the average cost in the first year of a baby is over £11,000
    seriously? does it really cost that much in the first year of raising a child? how could it be so much??

  4. #4
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    See that link to moneyadvice that I gave above. (It's from last year so inflation will have made it even more by now).

    Average cost of a baby in year one

    You’re already £500 down in the first month but add in the costs
    from the other eleven months and it brings the total for year one
    of having a baby to a whopping £11,498, according to LV.
    NatWest calculate it a bit lower at £9,365.

    Of course those are worked out on the costs of buying everything new, some people don't like putting their precious firstborn in second hand equipment or clothing, or giving them second hand toys.
    The price of things like nappies can also vary enormously from top brand to supermarkets own.
    If you are not too bothered then second hand, and budget brands will obviously be cheaper.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

  5. #5
    i have been on UC for 2years LWCRA and estimate i have recieved 1500 pounds more than i would have got had i stayed in SG/ESA (maybe more) im single and was not getting SDP..
    i think peoples fear of UC in many cases is not warranted , whilst ive been on UC i have not had to fill out any forms (despite moving address 3times) , and have not been asked to attend a WCA .. i will say the council take liberties with the way they calculate there tax bill in some areas treating UC people different to ESA people , but if i recieved a letter tomorrow inviting me to go back to the old ESA system i would not hesitate in saying no i am now use to UC .. i hope those worried about being moved off ESA take heart from my experience of UC , and when the time comes for them to join us on UC (the sun is always shining here on UC) remember that having to visit a JC at the start of there UC claim is ONLY to produce i.d and have a chat about nothing , and yes there may be a few JC staff who try to make you feel uncomfortable about being found unfit to do any work related activity , remember this > if you have attended a WCA and found unfit to work then no matter what JC staff tell you its not there opinion that counts but the health care professionals at the WCA >AND until the your sent for another WCA that award STANDS even if you move from ESA/SG to UC/LWCRA !! AND if you HAVNT been back and found fit to work you DONT need SICK NOTES . the worst thing in the local council or UC system is those staff causing distress to people by telling them now there on UC they have to focus on WORK ?? NO WE DONT we have the same award we had in SG and that award stands in UC so if like me you have been told to supply sick notes or attend JCs for a "chat" on a regular basis say "sorry but ive been found unfit to work" , some JC staff will tell you they know what there talking about bla bla bla but dont be bullied , if your in either SG or LWCRA then the JC is JUST A POINT OF CONTACT !!!! in most cases the staff tend to leave you alone once they realise your not in WRAG , although there are still some out there who dont know the difference between WRAG and LWCRA .....amen

  6. #6
    Dont want to get too political.

    But facts are most people getting ESA SG do not get SDP. UC for LCWRA gives more money except in one specific scenario in which someone would have qualified for SDP, so for most people on LCWRA, UC will award more money. The SDP situation has had a lot of noise made about it which has led to many people assuming UC is bad for everyone. I think thats a wrongful assumption.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by nukecad View Post
    See that link to moneyadvice that I gave above. (It's from last year so inflation will have made it even more by now).



    NatWest calculate it a bit lower at £9,365.

    Of course those are worked out on the costs of buying everything new, some people don't like putting their precious firstborn in second hand equipment or clothing, or giving them second hand toys.
    The price of things like nappies can also vary enormously from top brand to supermarkets own.
    If you are not too bothered then second hand, and budget brands will obviously be cheaper.
    yes i was assuming that would be the case. i know families who are completely worse off than me yet somehow able to raise the children that they have without having had to ask for help. i assume that they just buy things second hand. i've seen never fancy state of the art prams or toys in their house. usually just a standard pram and teddies that could easily have come either from presents or from poundland. theres always got to be a loophole somewhere

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by druid View Post
    i have been on UC for 2years LWCRA and estimate i have recieved 1500 pounds more than i would have got had i stayed in SG/ESA (maybe more) im single and was not getting SDP..
    i think peoples fear of UC in many cases is not warranted , whilst ive been on UC i have not had to fill out any forms (despite moving address 3times) , and have not been asked to attend a WCA .. i will say the council take liberties with the way they calculate there tax bill in some areas treating UC people different to ESA people , but if i recieved a letter tomorrow inviting me to go back to the old ESA system i would not hesitate in saying no i am now use to UC .. i hope those worried about being moved off ESA take heart from my experience of UC , and when the time comes for them to join us on UC (the sun is always shining here on UC) remember that having to visit a JC at the start of there UC claim is ONLY to produce i.d and have a chat about nothing , and yes there may be a few JC staff who try to make you feel uncomfortable about being found unfit to do any work related activity , remember this > if you have attended a WCA and found unfit to work then no matter what JC staff tell you its not there opinion that counts but the health care professionals at the WCA >AND until the your sent for another WCA that award STANDS even if you move from ESA/SG to UC/LWCRA !! AND if you HAVNT been back and found fit to work you DONT need SICK NOTES . the worst thing in the local council or UC system is those staff causing distress to people by telling them now there on UC they have to focus on WORK ?? NO WE DONT we have the same award we had in SG and that award stands in UC so if like me you have been told to supply sick notes or attend JCs for a "chat" on a regular basis say "sorry but ive been found unfit to work" , some JC staff will tell you they know what there talking about bla bla bla but dont be bullied , if your in either SG or LWCRA then the JC is JUST A POINT OF CONTACT !!!! in most cases the staff tend to leave you alone once they realise your not in WRAG , although there are still some out there who dont know the difference between WRAG and LWCRA .....amen
    wait... really? in UC you don't need to send in sicks notes (if found fit for work during yet another one of their shoddy assessments). and are you appealing your decision. sorry i was kinda confused, are you in the SG version of UC now?

    sorry and do you have a time period like with ESA (they always say you've got ESA for 3 years until your next assessment). or is UC ongoing??
    Last edited by everycloud88; 09-18-2019 at 07:36 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by worried33 View Post
    Dont want to get too political.

    But facts are most people getting ESA SG do not get SDP. UC for LCWRA gives more money except in one specific scenario in which someone would have qualified for SDP, so for most people on LCWRA, UC will award more money. The SDP situation has had a lot of noise made about it which has led to many people assuming UC is bad for everyone. I think thats a wrongful assumption.
    thank you for reassuring me, i guess i did read it very wrong.

  10. #10
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by everycloud88 View Post
    wait... really? in UC you don't need to send in sicks notes (if found fit for work during yet another one of their shoddy assessments). and are you appealing your decision. sorry i was kinda confused, are you in the SG version of UC now?

    sorry and do you have a time period like with ESA (they always say you've got ESA for 3 years until your next assessment). or is UC ongoing??
    The WCA process is exactly the same for both ESA and UC, so reassessments are required in both.
    If you have both CB ESA and UC then the one WCA (reassessment) counts for both benefits.

    The main difference is that if you do happen to be found fit for work then with UC you just stay on UC while you are asking for MR/appealing.
    With UC you don't need to send sicknotes in that situation, because the standard UC payments are the same with or without sicknotes.
    And although you are now in the "All work-related activity group" the work coaches have more discretion than with ESA and they don't make you do any searching while the appeal is ongoing.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

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