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Thread: In Desperate Need of Help - PIP Upper Tribunal - Secretary of State Supports Appeal

  1. #1

    Question In Desperate Need of Help - PIP Upper Tribunal - Secretary of State Supports Appeal

    Hi All
    I wish I'd found this site sooner but now I am at the stage, after nearly 3 years, where the Secretary of State (S0S) has supported my appeal at the Upper Tribunal. I need to respond but haven't had any help at any stage and have tried to find a solicitor for this stage but I cannot. Plus I haven't any money to pay them anyway! Also I have searched for answers to this on here but the closest I've got was someone at first tier stage so my apologies if my queries have already been asked and answered. If they have, I would be grateful if you could point out the link to them please.

    My query is the wording used by the SoS. I have uploaded a jpeg of the text I'm confused about. I hope you will be able to read it.

    I'm assuming point 1.3 means if the judge agrees that the Tribunal erred in law, that I go back to the lower tier for another tribunal with different people. Aargh, I just want it to end.

    I'm not sure what point 1.4 means though. I have tried to understand Rule 40(3) but it seems to have further edits that link to other files and to be honest, it is beyond me. Does 1.4 mean it's all over and I am awarded the enhanced rate or is it up to the judge to decide on how to act?

    Also with point 1.4, I think I understand the SoS is saying he's not bothered about finding out the logic behind the judge's ruling but I would want to know i.e. I don't consent to a decision without reasons. Would this go against me? Is it worth asking for?

    I feel I am close to the end but really don't know what to say when I respond in the form 3A. I don't want to hurt my case at this point by saying the wrong thing. The SoS has included another case that has been ruled on in reference to mine but I don't know if I should be referring to that myself or what. I'm really at a loss and just about to go into hospital so I need to sort this before I go next Tuesday.

    Any help would be really appreciated. Cheers JJ
    Attachments Pending Approval

  2. #2
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    We can't see that atachment (yet).

    When the SoS agrees with your grounds for appeal it means that they accept thay you are correct and they are not going to argue against you.

    The rest (which we can't see yet) is just what the DWP (SoS) would like to happen next.
    The Upper Tribunal Judge can reject it totally.

    The DWP like to have it sent back to FTT for legal reasons that suit them, but the UT judge will make his/her own ruling on that.

    Once you are up to the Upper Tribunal it all gets more legal than the First Tier (for various reasons).
    That doesn't necessarily mean that you need a solicitor or other reprrsentation.
    UT judges on benefit matters have become used to seeing claimants who can't afford that and will make allowances.

    Like I say we can't see your attachment, but you seem to be bothered about what the DWP (SoS) is sayimg about prevoious rulings (Case Law).
    I wouldn't bother too much, it's just their argument and the often get it wrong - a good UT judge won't be fooled.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

  3. #3
    Thank you Nukecad. My apologies about the attachment. The only other forum I'm on the attachments are available straight away. I did see it said pending but I didn't realise it took a while. My bad for not reading the instructions properly.

    I agree, I think perhaps I am too tied up on the Case Law and I should just do what I've done all along and wing it. It has got me this far! I just needed someone to say what you did and reading some of your other replies you seem quite au fait with it all. Thanks.

    1.4 from my attachment:
    If the Judge accepts my [the S0S] submission in its entirety, I [the SoS] consent to a decision without reasons as provided by Rule 40(3) of the Tribunal Procedure (Upper Tribunal) Rules 2008.

    Do you know of any cases where the Judge has awarded the disputed points leading to a better situation? With me it would move me from standard to enhanced mobility.

    My other question was about reasons. If I don't consent to a decision without reasons is this likely to hinder my chances, as in would the judge be annoyed at this? Is it worth asking for?

    Like I assume many others fighting PIP decisions, I had the higher rate for mobility but they downgraded me during the PIP process. I understand the rules are different but I am worse mobility wise than than I was when claiming DLA. I fall well within the enhanced criteria but due to inept people at practically every stage recording totally wrong information in their reports, it has been an uphill battle. The last blow was at the first tier tribunal when they stated in their report I could walk 200 metres because they totally didn't listen to what I was saying and just wrote down something else. I know there is a lot of information flowing at these tribunals but when it impacts on somebody's life you would think they would take more care.

    Anyway, thanks again and if you or anyone else can add anything further, I would appreciate it. JJ

  4. #4
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    UT Judges can award more points, less points, or send it back to FTT maybe with specific directions on what they should consider, or just about anything else.

    Just what a Judge will rule is anybodys guess, but all of the above have been know to happen.

    A Decision without Reasons is again just what the DWP is asking for, the Judge doesn't have to do that.
    But it's usually quicker to get a decision made as the Judge doesn't have to write up a legal justification of his ruling.

    In this case as the SoS agrees with your appeal then there is no real need for the Judge to give legal reasons if he rules what the SoS is asking for.
    It's simply an attempt by the DWP to try and get the Judge to do what they are asking, they nearly always try it.
    Basically it's just a standard phrase that goes into most submissions where they are not contesting the appeal, but trying to get it sent back to the lower tribunal.
    Judges aren't stupid, so he may give an entirely different ruling to what they are asking for.

    If/when a UT Judge gives a Statement of Reasons then the ruling becomes case law, if he doesn't give a statement then there is nothing in writing to enter into case law.
    Which is another reason that the DWP may ask for a decision without a statement, to avoid a case law being set. (Although I don't see that being an issue here).

    I'd leave it to the Judge to decide about a statement or not, which will probably depend on what he rules.

    And just to note that I'm not legally trained, I'm just going on what I have read up on and seen happen elsewhere.
    Last edited by nukecad; 11-09-2019 at 05:56 PM.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

  5. #5
    Thanks again Nukecad, your feedback has really helped. Well it's taken all day and half of yesterday but I have finally finished my response to the judge. It's not that long, it was more about making sure I had covered all the relevant points of contention while recognising the case law. I only hope I have got it right. No doubt a letter plopping on my doormat will let me know. I have become to hate all snail mail because of PIP!

    I will keep an eye on the site because I might even be able to help someone else. Of course, after all this time, I am probably due to be reassessed anyway!
    Cheers, JJ

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