Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: Covid vaccination.

  1. #1
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    West Cumbria (Lake District)
    Posts
    9,222

    Covid vaccination.

    We've all see the big headlines for the last couple of days shouting about a new Covid vaccination.

    The government have announced that the NHS are ready to start administering the first doses before Christmas.

    Forgive me for being sceptical, but they can't even get this years flu vaccinations done on time and that's supposed to have been planned months in advance.

    The new vaccine isn't even approved for general use yet, although no doubt there will shortly be a lot of cut red tape on the floor.

    So what is it?

    The first thing to say is that as yet it's not clear if this new vaccine will stop the spread of Covid, or simply mean that those who catch it don't get severely ill and/or die.
    Either way that's a result if it works.

    It's too early yet to know if you will need to have a new one each year like the flu jab.
    That will depend on how the Covid virus evolves/mutates.

    The vaccine is said to be 90% effective.
    But manufacturers (and governments) statistics always need a good looking at, in particular 90% of what? (eg. 90% of those tested positive is different from 90% of those with symptoms, is different from 90% of those infected overall, is different from 90% of the population including those not infected).

    This particular Covid vaccine is a new type of vaccine which works in a different way to previous vaccines.
    It's an RNA modifying vaccine, a type never released for general use before now.
    This explanation is not too technical: RNA vaccines: an introduction (University of Cambridge).

    There are already a few other RNA modifiers for other conditions approved and close to general release, I was invited to take part in a phase 4 trial of one last year.
    Those are having voluntary phase 4 trials before general release because they are a new type so the manufacturers are being extra cautious.

    With the new Covid vaccine a phase 4 trial will be skipped, that's not particularly unusual for a new drug but is maybe a bit more so for a new type.
    (They will monitor things in the general public rather than in a voluntary manufacturers trial).

    There are a couple of possible practical problems:
    This particular new Covid vaccination is not one jab, it's two jabs that have to be given 3 to 4 weeks apart.
    It has to be stored at minus 80 degrees Celcius* before and during delivery to the injection clinic, and once thawed out for use only lasts 5 days in a fridge.
    Which of course all gives more scope for cocking things up.

    *Minus 80 Celcius is very cold, and not often seen outside of a laboratory.
    The vaccine would have to be transported quickly in special cryogenic containers, I doubt that there are thousands of these just lying around waiting to be used. https://www.sopachem.com/biobanking/...ample-carrier/
    I suspect that instead it will be a five day race to get it from the manufacturer in a standard cold box and into your arm.
    Last edited by nukecad; 11-11-20 at 21:40.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    388
    For keeping it cold I've read that they might use dry ice. Funny enough I had a delivery yesterday of a frozen product by dpd. No where on the box did it say there was dry ice in the box. I found the item felt colder than if it was in my freezer & actually hurt my had to hold it because it was that cold. I found what I thought was those packing filler bags which turned out to be the dry ice. Oh my days did that hurt! on reading about dry ice you should never hold it with your bare skin. Now they tell me! All of that was in a grey polystyrene box with lid.

    That was blooming cold & undoubtedly colder than my freezer weather it's minus 80 degrees though I don't know.

    There is talk of opening up lots of temp vaccination clinics all over the UK, my guess is that so much of these will be given to each clinic to use that day then supply more once that's gone from some sort of storage that is kept below 80 degrees.There is also talk of the army to help.

    With this vaccine there is no info from the data yet on how effective it is in older people.

    There is also a Oxford vaccine in stage three trials & there new lot of data on how it's working is set to come out any day now. With this one it is already known that it's very effective in older people. I "think" & this is just my thoughts nothing more that it could be that more than one vaccine is used for different age groups like the flu vaccine every year. There are three versions of that.

  3. #3
    Senior Member beau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    2,864
    The downside of this vaccine is the fact that anyone who has a weak immune system can't have it. Yet they are the ones who need it most and on the extremely vulnerable list.
    I wonder if that is because it hasn't been tested as extensively as now drug products usually are.

  4. #4
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    West Cumbria (Lake District)
    Posts
    9,222
    Quote Originally Posted by beau View Post
    I wonder if that is because it hasn't been tested as extensively as now drug products usually are.
    The 3 phases of required testing for a new drug/treatment to get approval are still in place as normal. (Although they might be shortcutting a few timescales).

    A 4th phase trial is not a requirement for approval and isn't always done, it's more of a manufacturers 'cover your backside'. (To mitigate against future lawsuits if something should go wrong after release).

    TBH with the Covid situation it's obviously a case of "whatever we can, as soon as we can", so normal standards may be lowered.

    As with any emergency rules get relaxed to get things done, then you sort out the paperwork later.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

  5. #5
    Senior Member sea queen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    A couple of things for me with this.
    1 I wouldn't be rushing to have it even if I was on the first listings. I suppose I would rather sit back for awhile and see how it goes.

    2 My daughter tells me she heard something on the news about people could pay to have the vaccine? Anyone else heard this? Now if after awhile I felt comfortable having the vaccine I wouldn't object to paying for it PROVIDING it was to enable more people to get it sooner who couldn't pay - does that make sense?
    Sea Queen

  6. #6
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    West Cumbria (Lake District)
    Posts
    9,222
    It's all unknowns as yet, so of course there is a lot of speculation and misinformation out there as usual.
    The press/media have to talk about something even when they don't know anything.

    No doubt there will be some looking to cash in and make a quick profit, if they can get the vaccine stock in the first place*, and so some vaccinations will be available to buy - just like you can buy a flu jab if you are not entitled to a free one.

    *All the signs at the moment are that the covid vaccine is only being offered for sale to governments and not to the private sector.
    Let's face it governments are a much bigger market and are desperate to pay even top price, so higher profits for the drug companies.

    (I wonder how many scammers will jump on that bandwagon and sell you a flu jab and a saline jab instead of the 2 Covid jabs? Lets face it you don't know what's in those hypodermics).

    But could you imagine the stink that would be raised if anyone could pay to jump the NHS queue for a covid vaccine shot, thus denying what will be a limited supply to people on the priority lists?

    Then of course there are countries like the USA where almost all healthcare is private so most will have to pay.

    PS. It's reported that GP practices will be paid £12.58 per full (two part) covid vaccination carried out.
    https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/co...tion-campaign/
    Last edited by nukecad; 16-11-20 at 02:15.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    388
    This week has thrown up two questions for me.

    1, How do they decide who's immune system is too weak for the vaccine?
    2, A lot has been said about the low temperature it needs to be kept at & then once drawn up the time scale it needs to be used in before becoming ineffective. But not a lot has been said about the timing between the two doses. They say three weeks, is this exactly three weeks? would a little earlier or later effect the vaccine?. I'm wondering for the logistics of it all & how stretched it's going to be to vaccinate everyone eventually.

  8. #8
    Senior Member beau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    2,864
    Just read this on the BBC News, could be the alternative for folk with weak or none existent immune systems. There is hope on the horizon.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55022288

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    388
    Thanks beau,

    I've seen it on sky news this morning. It's fantastic news!. I've had the question in my mind about who can't have the original one for a while, but this has made me want to find out more now because I am on a low dose immune suppressant used to treat many illnesses including cancer, which very thankfully I don't have.

    How do they judge who can & can't have it & how time sensitive is the three weeks between doses spot on three weeks or can be done a little earlier or later than that, thinking about logistics & the NHS getting the timing right

  10. #10
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    West Cumbria (Lake District)
    Posts
    9,222
    You have to remember that nobody knows the absolute answers to these questions yet.

    Anything you see, even on TV news, even from the government or doctors, is just speculation at the moment.

    We probably won't know most of the answers for sure until next year when they can evaluate what went on 'in the wild' after vaccinating people.

    For what it's worth:
    The imune system question is mainly as you say, those on cancer or other treatments that deliberately knock down their immune response, - those who have HIV/aids, certain types of diabetes, hepatitis, and various other conditions that mess with your immune system.


    I've seen something on the timings of the jabs for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine and its a 'between XX and YY days', it's about a weeks spread to be most effective and 3 weeks is the mid point.
    Like anything else there is some tolerance, you couldn't expect it to be 3 weeks to the exact minute.

    For eaxmple - A 2nd phase trial of a different 2-jab Covid vaccine (CoronaVac, from Sinovac Life Sciences) reported in the Lancet showed that with that particular one best efficay was over a two week period.
    Having the second jab after 14 days was OK but a touch early, after 28 days was OK but a touch late, best results were at around 21 days (3 weeks) and so was the point to aim for.

    So for that one having the second jab between 18 to 24 days would be a sensible target, leaving an extra 4 days just in case it's delayed for some reason

    I also believe that some of the other vaccines that are close to approval work differently and so may only need one injection?
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

Similar Threads

  1. Wheelchair users and COVID 19
    By Andrew76 in forum Health - help & advice on health issues for disabled people
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-04-20, 08:01
  2. Coronavirus (COVID-19): what to do if you’re already getting benefits
    By nukecad in forum Benefits - help & advice on disability benefits, incapacity benefits, ESA and DLA
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-04-20, 09:44
  3. Modability abd Covid-19
    By nukecad in forum Motoring - help & advice on cars for disabled people, Blue Badge and Motability
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-04-20, 14:21
  4. A Swiss Doctor On Covid-19
    By Sky in forum News and general discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 29-03-20, 13:15
  5. Covid 19, face to face assessments suspended
    By noisynoodle in forum Benefits - help & advice on disability benefits, incapacity benefits, ESA and DLA
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 26-03-20, 11:15

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •